Circle of 4ths & 5ths by Mode

I’m not quite sure what your thinking is if I’m honest, maybe I’m not getting the question?
I wouldn’t really associate any scales or modes with the circle of fifths (or fourths). Can you give me some more detail about how you are relating it to modes?

Lee-116 / Modes are affiiated with the intervals of: C-Ionian, F- Lydian, Bb’-Locrian, etc., however, as stated above, my calculatiions prove inconsistant with the accepted norm.

I’ve read over your questions a few times and I’m still struggling to see where you are making the connection, if I could figure this out I could give you a better answer.

Personally I’m not a fan of the Circle of Fifths. In my opinion it takes a slightly complicated subject and turns it into something unnecessarily over-complicated. This is not helped by the amount of books and articles on the subject giving the impression it is some wonderful chart full of insights. The circle of fifths is a chart that points out relationships between key signatures and relative scales or keys. It does not tell us anything about scales themselves, only their relationships, i.e., major and minor. The whole thing in my opinion is a waste of brain space. If this glorified chart can tell us anything at all, it’s things that we should memorise anyway and would be better served written in linear fashion. That’s my opinion of it anyway.

Everything in music theory is relative to the major scale, our starting point if you like. C major has no sharps or flats. If we move five scale degrees up from C, we land on G. If we now consider G as the root of a major scale we end up with a scale that is closely related to the notes in C major, all but one (F) which is sharpened. The same again if we move five degrees up from G we get to D. D major scale is closely related to G major, all but one note (C) which is now sharpened. And so on.

All this tells us is that every time we move up a fifth , or down a fourth, we can change key smoothly because only one note is different between adjacent “fifths” or “fourths”

If we memorise the circle then we can work out how many sharps or flats are in a key signature. For instance, we know that at the top is C. One move left is an F and so the key signature of F has one flat. Move one left again we have Bb. This will have two flats in the key signature. We can keep moving left and add one flat at a time. Do the opposite if we move clockwise to the right. The inner circle shows the relative minor to each of the notes on the outer circle. There is not much more to be learnt from the circle of fifths and it is far more useful to simply memorise the key signatures and their major / minor relationship, if you have a use for such things.

Modes? I can think of nothing to relate the circle of fifths to modes other than the relationship they have to each of the notes on the outer circle, either way, the circle will tell us nothing about modes. C major is relative to A natural minor, no more or less than it is relative to D Dorian, E Phrygian etc., because they all share the same key signature. G Lydian is relative to D major and F Mixolydian is relative to Bb major. This never changes, they are relative because they share the same key signature.

My guess is somewhere along the way you are mixing up scale degrees and “fifth” degrees. The notes that go around the circle are fifths of fifths, i.e., going clockwise, C G D A … G is a fifth of C major; D is a fifth of G major; A is a fifth of D major and so on.

I’m really not sure if I’m making sense or making things worse here so feel free to keep asking questions and I’ll try my best to help you get to the bottom of it.

Lee

Donn. I’m happy to keep this going, besides, it can be useful to my other readers. Just keep in mind I can’t always answer quickly.
I’m currently reading the modes stuff at zombieguitar and then I’ll be checking out the other one you mentioned in the other comments, “hyper-modes”. I’ll reply back here when I can get my head around their way of thinking.

The Hyper-Modes thing, my personal advice is to ignore it. He shows the modes going around the circle, all related to the notes in the circle relative to C root. In my opinion it’s a crazy and confusing way to look at it. In his defence, he states it’s a theoretical idea based on his curiosity. Either way, it’s an advanced way of thinking and again, in my opinion, a complete waste of time.

The Brian Kelly quote that you have posted here makes sense, although I would question some of what he teaches on his website, for the most part he seems to know what he is talking about, just offering different ways of using modes. In his section on using different modes in the same key, this part I disagree with, even though I get where he is coming from, I think it creates unnecessary confusion and complications.

Back to your very first question .. this is where I’m still not getting it. The best I can make out is you are relating the mode to the note left or right of the circle. I.e., G is to the right of D therefore G is Lydian of D major? In the other direction, Bb next to F … F is Mixolydian of Bb.
You are then relating this to other information that is only giving an example of modes relative to C major? Somewhere along the lines you have your paths crossed, I’m just trying to figure out where.

This also brings me back to my original point. Most teaching of the circle of fifths takes a slightly complicated subject and turns it into a mess of unnecessary confusion.

Anyway, let me know if I’m on the right tracks of how you are relating the modes to the circle.

Does this indicate that, when you count backwards to grab a ‘tone-Pitch’, below ‘Tonic, you enter into a different ( flat ) key?
C, Db, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb,-C- D, E, F, G, A, B, C.
8/1,2,3,4,5, 6, 7,’1′,2,3,4,5,6,7,8/1